I can certainly believe the research that shows cardiovascular benefits. However, there is also a serious risk that was not discussed in the article and I do not think anyone should use nattokinase without being cautioned about the potential risks. I was taking nattokinase up to 400 mg. per day which is the maximum recommended in the Spike Support product, and had no side effects. But I had read one of the research studies showing cardiovascular benefit and "no side effects" in the research report, so I increased the dose for a few weeks. I had a fall and injured my knee very badly. I went to see an orthopedic surgeon within 72 hours, the soonest possible, and he immediately asked what blood thinner I was taking because of the enormous amount of swelling in my knee, and the enormous amount of bruising. I had bled into my knee joint just as a hemophiliac would (people with hemophilia cannot make one of the clotting factors and they can bleed excessively into a joint if they have an injury - as I did). Turns out that I was just like a hemophiliac and that with higher doses of nattokinase one can lose the ability to make Factor VIII and also Factor VII, so that one can bleed very excessively as I did. And - it can take two weeks or so to regain normal clotting capability. In fact, nattokinase has multiple mechanisms of action that serve to decrease the ability to clot. If you are having surgery, I would think that you should stop this perhaps 3 weeks in advance, and also, I do not think this should be taken without your primary physician being agreeable to monitor. When the orthopedic surgeon asked me what blood thinner - I realized, it must be the nattokinase, though I had not previously understood it could cause what I had just experienced. And by the way - at the time of the fall, I had already been off nattokinase for nearly a week, because I had decided not to take it while traveling, simply to avoid having to pack one more thing when traveling to a conference. And - even after returning home, and not resuming nattokinase, I additionally had an esophageal bleed, something I had never had before (I had had an esophogeal problem for decades, but never before any bleeding). When I met with a gastroenterologist, and discussing that situation, he pointed out that I was lucky that nothing worse had happened. I realized if I had hit my head in the fall (which I had not), it might have been a brain bleed - or one could have an eye bleed resulting in blindness which happened to someone I know of. Here is what Gemini AI said when I asked about how nattokinase can do this - all that follows is from Gemini:
That is an excellent and important question, as it gets to the core of why nattokinase is used therapeutically but also why it carries a significant risk of excessive or easy bleeding for some users.
Nattokinase (NK) is a potent enzyme extracted from the Japanese fermented soybean food natto. Its entire function in the body is to promote the dissolution of blood clots (thrombolysis) and reduce the blood's tendency to clot.
Nattokinase causes easy bleeding primarily through its three-pronged attack on the blood clotting system:
1. Direct Fibrinolysis (Clot Dissolving) - This is the primary and most powerful mechanism of nattokinase.
Fibrin Degradation: Nattokinase is a serine protease enzyme that directly breaks down fibrin. Fibrin is a tough, insoluble protein that forms the final mesh-like scaffolding of a blood clot (thrombus).
Action: By cleaving (cutting) this fibrin mesh, nattokinase literally dissolves existing clots and prevents new ones from fully solidifying. It is often compared to the body's natural clot-dissolving enzyme, plasmin, and is considered even more potent.
2. Enhancing the Body's Own Clot-Dissolvers- Nattokinase doesn't just work directly; it enhances the body's own fibrinolytic (clot-dissolving) system:
Urokinase and t-PA Activation: Nattokinase converts prourokinase (an inactive enzyme precursor) into urokinase (a powerful clot-dissolver). It also increases the body’s levels of tissue plasminogen activator (t-PA). Both urokinase and t-PA are enzymes that ultimately lead to increased production of plasmin, the body's natural clot-buster.
PAI-1 Degradation: It also degrades Plasminogen Activator Inhibitor-1 (PAI-1), which is the body's main brake on the fibrinolytic system. By degrading PAI-1, nattokinase effectively removes the brake, allowing the body to dissolve clots more freely and aggressively.
3. Modulating Coagulation Factors (Slowing the Clot Formation) - Nattokinase also reduces the concentration of key proteins necessary to start the clotting process:
Factor Reduction: Studies show that nattokinase helps lower plasma levels of critical clotting agents such as Factor VII and Factor VIII. A reduction in these factors means the initial stages of the coagulation cascade are slowed down.
Summary of Risk
Because nattokinase works through these three powerful mechanisms—directly dissolving clots, promoting natural clot dissolution, and slowing the rate of new clot formation—it essentially acts as a strong oral blood thinner (anticoagulant/antiplatelet agent).
The risk of easy bleeding is not due to a side effect but is a direct result of its intended pharmacological action on the blood. This risk becomes critical when nattokinase is:
Taken alongside prescription blood-thinners (like Warfarin, Plavix, or even high-dose Aspirin).
Taken by someone who has a pre-existing bleeding disorder (like hemophilia).
Taken immediately before or after surgery.
[My final comment is that I was not taken Coumadin/warfarin, nor Plavix, nor aspirin or any other med associated with "blood thinning." I do not have a pre-existing bleeding disorder like hemophilia. Three months later, most of the blood in my knee has reabsorbed, but there is still a lump in that knee that I believe is a result of the excessive bleeding I experienced, which has not yet fully resolved. I have not taken nattokinase since then, and have not taken since before I traveled to that conference, and I have had no further bleeding. But apparently it can take a week or longer for the body to produce a supply of clotting factors after they have been knocked out by a high dose of nattokinase. It is a good medication for getting rid of spike, and can have amazing cardiovascular benefits, but should be monitored just the same as if you were taking a strong prescription blood thinner.]
Well, the article that influenced me to take the higher dose was one that McCullough had posted, and I think it recommended 11,000FU as the dose, saying it had cardiovascular benefits and "no side effects." If I had not seen that article I would never have never had taken that dose. But there was never a warning that it could decrease the ability to clot etc. McCullough has written on this as he has today without mentioning there can be side effects. And the thing is - as Gemini said, this is a "direct effect" of how this works. Since my blood was not being monitored and I had not had any falls or injuries while taking the lower dose - there is no proof of safety even at the lower dose. True, I didn't have any adverse effects that I know of, but if I had fallen at that time... I don't know. Others could have had adverse effects not knowing it was due to nattokinase. Coumadin is a powerful blood thinner with similar potential effects to what I experienced, and that is always monitored carefully no matter what the dose - it is monitored, and then the blood tests guide the dosing. With the actions nattokinase has, everyone needs to know 1) don't take it if you are taking other meds that can cause "blood thinning" effects - but that might include many other supplements one must avoid, not just warfarin, Plavix or aspirin. 2) don't take it if you have surgery scheduled 3) don't take it if you have a condition that causes easy bleeding. But - as far as supplements, I just now ask Gemini if ginger, ginko, or Vitamin E can cause bleeding problems, and Gemini said yes - so - don't take those if you are taking nattokinase. I thought of these three things as they are supplements I used in very distant past and thought I remembered they are "blood thinners" though I didn't take them for that particular reason, and I never took them with nattokinase. But yes, you should never take them with nattokinase.
Here is what Gemini says - everything below is from Google Gemini 2.5 AI:
"Yes, all three substances—ginger, ginkgo, and Vitamin E—have demonstrated blood-thinning (anticoagulant or antiplatelet) effects, meaning they can all potentially increase the risk of easy bleeding, especially when taken in high doses or combined with prescription medications."
"Their mechanisms, however, are distinct:
Substance Primary Mechanism of Action Risk Profile
Ginger Inhibits Platelet Aggregation: Prevents blood platelets from sticking together, which slows down the initial clot formation process. Moderate. Most concern is with high-dose supplements or extracts, especially around the time of surgery or when taken with prescription blood thinners (like Warfarin or Aspirin).
Ginkgo Biloba Antiplatelet Activity (Ginkgolide B): Acts as an antagonist to Platelet-Activating Factor (PAF), directly inhibiting platelets from aggregating and clotting. High Caution. Numerous case reports link ginkgo use (often with prescription thinners) to bleeding events, including severe ones (e.g., intracranial hemorrhage). Generally advised to stop before surgery.
Vitamin E Vitamin K Antagonism: High doses (well above the daily recommended amount) can interfere with the body's metabolism of Vitamin K, a fat-soluble vitamin essential for synthesizing key clotting factors (like Factors II, VII, IX, and X). Dose-Dependent. The risk is primarily associated with excessive supplementation (high IU/mg doses), not dietary intake. It interferes with the deep, factor-based clotting cascade."
PS the reason for monitoring would be - when people are taking coumadin / warfarin a strong prescription "blood thinner" there are blood tests that can show if the degree of "blood thinning" too much or if it is in the desired parameters. It seems to me that with a medication like nattokinase, similar monitoring which could guide dosage adjustment would be appropriate, certainly at higher doses. I don't know whether it is necessary for lower doses or not - I didn't have trouble at the lower doses, but I didn't always take it every day, and I didn't have any falls or injuries to know if I would have bled excessively at those times. I had completely stopped taking it, but resumed at the higher dose when I saw the reports about cardiovascular benefits at higher doses - had taken it for a few weeks at the high dose but had already stopped for maybe 5 days when I had the very impressive bleeding episode into my knee, and even after that from my esophagus. But from what Gemini said, it seems to me that anyone taking nattokinase should have blood monitoring for safety.
Martha, thank you for your very important comment.
There is extensive literature and warnings about side effects of prescription medicines, but little on side effects of supplements. And when you have a regular primary care physician, i.e., not, for example a functional medicine doctor or a specialist in all drugs, you don't know about warning sighs to watch our for, or where to go to find out if you think something is up.
Since starting my health quest almost 4 years ago I am off all 5 prescriptions but I am now approaching 20 supplements per day. I have never had a consultation about these and which ones to use and how it fits with food intake. Just this morning, Justus R. Hope, MD posted a substack on how to lessen colon cancer risk. Since my dad died of colon cancer risk this is of interest. I recently had a colonoscopy which was OK so that is good. But following Justus R. Hope would add 4 new drugs. I am 82 years old.
This is a good reason to visit a Naturopath or qualified herbalist. Or any alternative doc. OUR training includes side effects of both herbs and vitamin/mineral supplements. OUR training encourages the study of supplement/drug interactions. I’ve been an alternative doc for 30+ years and I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had to educate white coats on drugs and their side effects; excessive amounts of drugs and the side effects those cause. I’ve had to repeat two mantras to clients and docs, alike. “Taking two or more substances will provide a 100% interaction. So make sure those interactions are compatible.” And “more is not better” when taking anything. Follow the recommended dose. ALWAYS. Every plant, vitamin, mineral and drug in this planet can become harmful if taken in excess or with the wrong combination or the wrong combination for YOU. Which leds to another mantra: “just because your neighbor recommends something doesn’t mean it will work for you.” White coats aren’t taught that one, either. Everyone is different and different at different times in the healing process changes to formulas and supplement schedules are always needed and what works for your spouse doesn’t mean it will work for you. That includes diets and other modalities. Needless to say, this is one of many pet peeves I have. 😏
Are there blood tests which (1) determine extent of pollution of spikes from vax or shedding? (2) Extent of needed reduction of taking Spike detox supplements if o9n Plavix and/or other blood thinners? I was informed there i8s i8ndeed a blood test to determine existence of spike in blood for non-vaccinated folks.
I believe Nattokinase is a soy bean ferment. Not chickpeas. It originates in Japan where it’s considered a tasty side dish and is easily fermented for the dinner table. It has better effects in the body that way as well although the slimy aspect is an acquired taste. And because it is fermented soy, one wants to make darned sure the originating bean is organic since soy beans are one of the most genetically altered and poisoned-with-ag-chemicals on the planet. Right along with corn. If your Nattokinase doesn’t say it’s organic you are defeating the whole purpose of using it.
If they are used, it’s not Nattokinase. Chickpeas and soy beans are not the same. They have different chemical properties. That doesn’t mean chickpeas can’t behave the same as Nattokinase but it’s not the same and should be called something else. Another area of obfuscation I dislike in “research” and white coat medicine in general.
I did a quick search on DuckDuckGo using "using chickpeas to make nattokinaese". Many articles out there showing how to use chickpeas to make nattokinase. Many point to using it to provide soy free nattokinase. The articles seem to go back at least several years too. Haven't had a chance to review all of them and probably won't be able to either. If you have some references to review with differing information, that would be appreciated.
What about vit K2 in conjuction with vit D and Vit a and their role ina anti-athersclerothis through redireectiojn of calcium to bone and out of blood vessels?
I wanted to say - "you should just ask Google Gemini AI yourself" because this is a complex question - but I asked Gemini on your behalf - I am a health professional and I find that Google Gemini does give good clear answers that are verifiably correct, though you always have to double check because AIs can make mistakes. So - I have not "double checked" but Gemini's answer to your question seems correct to me - Gemini first gave a long answer that I am not quoting, but I re-asked the question very precisely and Gemini said this (all that follows is from Gemini - if you have further related questions, definitely ask Google Gemini yourself for further clarification):
That is a highly specific and critical question, and it addresses the fundamental conflict between these two supplements.
You are correct that even if the primary goal of taking nattokinase isn't clotting reduction, the fact that it does strongly affect clotting factors creates a potential problem when combined with Vitamin K, even if the doses are separated.
Here is the analysis of this conflict and the crucial reason why this combination is generally inadvisable without medical oversight:
Analysis of the Conflict: Antagonism and Instability
The difficulty arises because Vitamin K and Nattokinase operate on opposite sides of the coagulation system, leading to two major issues:
1. Direct Antagonism (Working Against Each Other)
Nattokinase's Action (Fibrinolysis): Nattokinase (NK) works to dissolve clots (by breaking down fibrin) and suppress clotting factors (like Factor VII and VIII) that are already in the blood.
Vitamin K's Action (Synthesis): Vitamin K (specifically K2, the form often paired with Vitamin D) works to activate and replenish those same clotting factors in the liver.
By taking them simultaneously (even if separated by a few hours), you create a biological tug-of-war. The Vitamin K is trying to increase active clotting factors, while the Nattokinase is trying to break down the final clot structure and suppress the synthesis chain. This makes the overall effect on the blood unpredictable.
2. Risk of Unpredictable Coagulation Status
The main reason this is inadvisable is the lack of control over the body's coagulation status.
Interference: Even a Vitamin K-free nattokinase supplement still strongly impacts fibrinogen and Factor VII/VIII. Taking a Vitamin K supplement alongside it means you are constantly interfering with the delicate balance the body maintains.
Safety Threshold: If the person were to experience a trauma, or if the nattokinase dose was high, the body might need a robust clotting response. The combined action risks leaving the individual in a state where neither the fibrinolytic system nor the coagulation system is functioning at a stable, predictable level.
Professional Recommendation: Extreme Caution is Needed
In the context you described (taking Vitamin K for bone health alongside nattokinase for a different health purpose):
It is generally advisable to avoid this combination. If the individual is trying to achieve a health goal with nattokinase that is not dependent on blood thinning, they should re-evaluate if nattokinase is the best supplement, given its potent effect on coagulation.
If they insist on taking both, they must consult a physician. A doctor can confirm that their blood is not being excessively thinned and can advise on lab monitoring (like INR or other coagulation tests) to ensure safety.
The safest approach for anyone taking a potent supplement like nattokinase is to avoid supplementing with Vitamin K, unless specifically instructed and monitored by a healthcare provider who understands the antagonistic relationship.
[All the above is from Gemini - my final comment would be - if nattokinase and Vit K are taken together, as Gemini said, it's a tug of war and you won't know for sure about clotting factors etc. unless you get blood tests done through your primary care provider. And I am not sure how this impacts spike protein. I did not ask Gemini anything related to spike protein issues because Covid & vaccines are so controversial and Gemini would have been programmed by someone who lines up with mainstream knowledge and mainstream narratives, so I'm not going to even ask about something where the programming is going to most likely be with the politically correct narrative. But Vit K serves to increase clotting factors while nattokinase decreases clotting factors. Part of what is desired in terms of counteracting spike protein effects, which is why many people take nattokinase, is because spike protein can cause unwanted blood clots that can cause harm, and having extra Vit. K on board may counteract that effect. But I had understood from things that I have read - that did not go into the mechanisms - that nattokinase may have some direct effect to eliminate spike protein and not just eliminate the effects of spike in terms of stopping spike protein from causing blood clots. That is, I know that nattokinase can prevent blood clots from forming within the circulatory system, but - does nattokinase dissolve or eliminate spike and if yes is it by some separate mechanism unrelated to the clotting issues? I doubt if any of the readers know, though McCullough may be able to clarify further. But as far as Vitamin K - I have read there is no need to take it at all if you are staying within 5,000 IU per day of Vitamin D, that we get a bit of Vit K in our diet almost unavoidably and we will absorb Vitamin D without the K unless the amount of D is about 5,000 IU per day. So maybe one doesn't need the K. I have read articles on this, and anyone interested might just google that or ask Gemini if you truly even need a Vit K supplement. But IF you take K, it will tend toward counteracting the blood thinning effects of nattokinase - which you want, to a point, if you were vaxxed and now your body makes spike protein every day, which causes blood clots that are harmful. So - Gemini said the results of using Vit K alongside Nattokinase are going to be unpredictable. At first Gemini said, you could try taking these at different times of day, but I reminded Gemini that it had already said that nattokinase knocks out the clotting factors for up to a week or two, for me, a good two weeks, I think, and that being the case, makes no difference if you space out the two supplements during a single day, the effects of both are longer term, and in the end, to know what is going on with clotting you would have to take to your physician and get blood tests. Gemini also in a lengthy separate post mentioned that in the food natto which is from fermented beans, there is actually a certain amount of Vitamin K, but in the more potent supplements the manufacturers remove the Vit. K so it's not there. Anyway, this question is pretty complex and partly unknowable, I think, think it is unlikely that anyone else is going to know much more on this. I hope this helps a little. But if you do have spike protein on board, you want to prevent clots and thus the K seems like something to avoid, but you also don't want to excessively inhibit your ability to clot, thus - having a physician check labs to make sure your dosage is right for you as far as the dose of nattokinase - and if taking both together, the net result can be monitored, but mostly K and nattokinase work at cross purposes in regard to clotting.
I can certainly believe the research that shows cardiovascular benefits. However, there is also a serious risk that was not discussed in the article and I do not think anyone should use nattokinase without being cautioned about the potential risks. I was taking nattokinase up to 400 mg. per day which is the maximum recommended in the Spike Support product, and had no side effects. But I had read one of the research studies showing cardiovascular benefit and "no side effects" in the research report, so I increased the dose for a few weeks. I had a fall and injured my knee very badly. I went to see an orthopedic surgeon within 72 hours, the soonest possible, and he immediately asked what blood thinner I was taking because of the enormous amount of swelling in my knee, and the enormous amount of bruising. I had bled into my knee joint just as a hemophiliac would (people with hemophilia cannot make one of the clotting factors and they can bleed excessively into a joint if they have an injury - as I did). Turns out that I was just like a hemophiliac and that with higher doses of nattokinase one can lose the ability to make Factor VIII and also Factor VII, so that one can bleed very excessively as I did. And - it can take two weeks or so to regain normal clotting capability. In fact, nattokinase has multiple mechanisms of action that serve to decrease the ability to clot. If you are having surgery, I would think that you should stop this perhaps 3 weeks in advance, and also, I do not think this should be taken without your primary physician being agreeable to monitor. When the orthopedic surgeon asked me what blood thinner - I realized, it must be the nattokinase, though I had not previously understood it could cause what I had just experienced. And by the way - at the time of the fall, I had already been off nattokinase for nearly a week, because I had decided not to take it while traveling, simply to avoid having to pack one more thing when traveling to a conference. And - even after returning home, and not resuming nattokinase, I additionally had an esophageal bleed, something I had never had before (I had had an esophogeal problem for decades, but never before any bleeding). When I met with a gastroenterologist, and discussing that situation, he pointed out that I was lucky that nothing worse had happened. I realized if I had hit my head in the fall (which I had not), it might have been a brain bleed - or one could have an eye bleed resulting in blindness which happened to someone I know of. Here is what Gemini AI said when I asked about how nattokinase can do this - all that follows is from Gemini:
That is an excellent and important question, as it gets to the core of why nattokinase is used therapeutically but also why it carries a significant risk of excessive or easy bleeding for some users.
Nattokinase (NK) is a potent enzyme extracted from the Japanese fermented soybean food natto. Its entire function in the body is to promote the dissolution of blood clots (thrombolysis) and reduce the blood's tendency to clot.
Nattokinase causes easy bleeding primarily through its three-pronged attack on the blood clotting system:
1. Direct Fibrinolysis (Clot Dissolving) - This is the primary and most powerful mechanism of nattokinase.
Fibrin Degradation: Nattokinase is a serine protease enzyme that directly breaks down fibrin. Fibrin is a tough, insoluble protein that forms the final mesh-like scaffolding of a blood clot (thrombus).
Action: By cleaving (cutting) this fibrin mesh, nattokinase literally dissolves existing clots and prevents new ones from fully solidifying. It is often compared to the body's natural clot-dissolving enzyme, plasmin, and is considered even more potent.
2. Enhancing the Body's Own Clot-Dissolvers- Nattokinase doesn't just work directly; it enhances the body's own fibrinolytic (clot-dissolving) system:
Urokinase and t-PA Activation: Nattokinase converts prourokinase (an inactive enzyme precursor) into urokinase (a powerful clot-dissolver). It also increases the body’s levels of tissue plasminogen activator (t-PA). Both urokinase and t-PA are enzymes that ultimately lead to increased production of plasmin, the body's natural clot-buster.
PAI-1 Degradation: It also degrades Plasminogen Activator Inhibitor-1 (PAI-1), which is the body's main brake on the fibrinolytic system. By degrading PAI-1, nattokinase effectively removes the brake, allowing the body to dissolve clots more freely and aggressively.
3. Modulating Coagulation Factors (Slowing the Clot Formation) - Nattokinase also reduces the concentration of key proteins necessary to start the clotting process:
Factor Reduction: Studies show that nattokinase helps lower plasma levels of critical clotting agents such as Factor VII and Factor VIII. A reduction in these factors means the initial stages of the coagulation cascade are slowed down.
Summary of Risk
Because nattokinase works through these three powerful mechanisms—directly dissolving clots, promoting natural clot dissolution, and slowing the rate of new clot formation—it essentially acts as a strong oral blood thinner (anticoagulant/antiplatelet agent).
The risk of easy bleeding is not due to a side effect but is a direct result of its intended pharmacological action on the blood. This risk becomes critical when nattokinase is:
Taken alongside prescription blood-thinners (like Warfarin, Plavix, or even high-dose Aspirin).
Taken by someone who has a pre-existing bleeding disorder (like hemophilia).
Taken immediately before or after surgery.
[My final comment is that I was not taken Coumadin/warfarin, nor Plavix, nor aspirin or any other med associated with "blood thinning." I do not have a pre-existing bleeding disorder like hemophilia. Three months later, most of the blood in my knee has reabsorbed, but there is still a lump in that knee that I believe is a result of the excessive bleeding I experienced, which has not yet fully resolved. I have not taken nattokinase since then, and have not taken since before I traveled to that conference, and I have had no further bleeding. But apparently it can take a week or longer for the body to produce a supply of clotting factors after they have been knocked out by a high dose of nattokinase. It is a good medication for getting rid of spike, and can have amazing cardiovascular benefits, but should be monitored just the same as if you were taking a strong prescription blood thinner.]
Perhaps yet another best personal learning curve on vitamin like Supls.
Whereby a little is very good....so "more" must be even better?
You chose the right substack to post this info of your own experience on!
A+
Well, the article that influenced me to take the higher dose was one that McCullough had posted, and I think it recommended 11,000FU as the dose, saying it had cardiovascular benefits and "no side effects." If I had not seen that article I would never have never had taken that dose. But there was never a warning that it could decrease the ability to clot etc. McCullough has written on this as he has today without mentioning there can be side effects. And the thing is - as Gemini said, this is a "direct effect" of how this works. Since my blood was not being monitored and I had not had any falls or injuries while taking the lower dose - there is no proof of safety even at the lower dose. True, I didn't have any adverse effects that I know of, but if I had fallen at that time... I don't know. Others could have had adverse effects not knowing it was due to nattokinase. Coumadin is a powerful blood thinner with similar potential effects to what I experienced, and that is always monitored carefully no matter what the dose - it is monitored, and then the blood tests guide the dosing. With the actions nattokinase has, everyone needs to know 1) don't take it if you are taking other meds that can cause "blood thinning" effects - but that might include many other supplements one must avoid, not just warfarin, Plavix or aspirin. 2) don't take it if you have surgery scheduled 3) don't take it if you have a condition that causes easy bleeding. But - as far as supplements, I just now ask Gemini if ginger, ginko, or Vitamin E can cause bleeding problems, and Gemini said yes - so - don't take those if you are taking nattokinase. I thought of these three things as they are supplements I used in very distant past and thought I remembered they are "blood thinners" though I didn't take them for that particular reason, and I never took them with nattokinase. But yes, you should never take them with nattokinase.
Here is what Gemini says - everything below is from Google Gemini 2.5 AI:
"Yes, all three substances—ginger, ginkgo, and Vitamin E—have demonstrated blood-thinning (anticoagulant or antiplatelet) effects, meaning they can all potentially increase the risk of easy bleeding, especially when taken in high doses or combined with prescription medications."
"Their mechanisms, however, are distinct:
Substance Primary Mechanism of Action Risk Profile
Ginger Inhibits Platelet Aggregation: Prevents blood platelets from sticking together, which slows down the initial clot formation process. Moderate. Most concern is with high-dose supplements or extracts, especially around the time of surgery or when taken with prescription blood thinners (like Warfarin or Aspirin).
Ginkgo Biloba Antiplatelet Activity (Ginkgolide B): Acts as an antagonist to Platelet-Activating Factor (PAF), directly inhibiting platelets from aggregating and clotting. High Caution. Numerous case reports link ginkgo use (often with prescription thinners) to bleeding events, including severe ones (e.g., intracranial hemorrhage). Generally advised to stop before surgery.
Vitamin E Vitamin K Antagonism: High doses (well above the daily recommended amount) can interfere with the body's metabolism of Vitamin K, a fat-soluble vitamin essential for synthesizing key clotting factors (like Factors II, VII, IX, and X). Dose-Dependent. The risk is primarily associated with excessive supplementation (high IU/mg doses), not dietary intake. It interferes with the deep, factor-based clotting cascade."
The point being - don't take those supplements while taking nattokinase since they would exacerbate the potential for the type of experience I had.
And your input here, is extremely valuable moving forward!
This is how modern tech improves our daily life.
First hand info experience rocks!
PS the reason for monitoring would be - when people are taking coumadin / warfarin a strong prescription "blood thinner" there are blood tests that can show if the degree of "blood thinning" too much or if it is in the desired parameters. It seems to me that with a medication like nattokinase, similar monitoring which could guide dosage adjustment would be appropriate, certainly at higher doses. I don't know whether it is necessary for lower doses or not - I didn't have trouble at the lower doses, but I didn't always take it every day, and I didn't have any falls or injuries to know if I would have bled excessively at those times. I had completely stopped taking it, but resumed at the higher dose when I saw the reports about cardiovascular benefits at higher doses - had taken it for a few weeks at the high dose but had already stopped for maybe 5 days when I had the very impressive bleeding episode into my knee, and even after that from my esophagus. But from what Gemini said, it seems to me that anyone taking nattokinase should have blood monitoring for safety.
Martha, thank you for your very important comment.
There is extensive literature and warnings about side effects of prescription medicines, but little on side effects of supplements. And when you have a regular primary care physician, i.e., not, for example a functional medicine doctor or a specialist in all drugs, you don't know about warning sighs to watch our for, or where to go to find out if you think something is up.
Since starting my health quest almost 4 years ago I am off all 5 prescriptions but I am now approaching 20 supplements per day. I have never had a consultation about these and which ones to use and how it fits with food intake. Just this morning, Justus R. Hope, MD posted a substack on how to lessen colon cancer risk. Since my dad died of colon cancer risk this is of interest. I recently had a colonoscopy which was OK so that is good. But following Justus R. Hope would add 4 new drugs. I am 82 years old.
This is a good reason to visit a Naturopath or qualified herbalist. Or any alternative doc. OUR training includes side effects of both herbs and vitamin/mineral supplements. OUR training encourages the study of supplement/drug interactions. I’ve been an alternative doc for 30+ years and I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had to educate white coats on drugs and their side effects; excessive amounts of drugs and the side effects those cause. I’ve had to repeat two mantras to clients and docs, alike. “Taking two or more substances will provide a 100% interaction. So make sure those interactions are compatible.” And “more is not better” when taking anything. Follow the recommended dose. ALWAYS. Every plant, vitamin, mineral and drug in this planet can become harmful if taken in excess or with the wrong combination or the wrong combination for YOU. Which leds to another mantra: “just because your neighbor recommends something doesn’t mean it will work for you.” White coats aren’t taught that one, either. Everyone is different and different at different times in the healing process changes to formulas and supplement schedules are always needed and what works for your spouse doesn’t mean it will work for you. That includes diets and other modalities. Needless to say, this is one of many pet peeves I have. 😏
Are there blood tests which (1) determine extent of pollution of spikes from vax or shedding? (2) Extent of needed reduction of taking Spike detox supplements if o9n Plavix and/or other blood thinners? I was informed there i8s i8ndeed a blood test to determine existence of spike in blood for non-vaccinated folks.
I had a heart CAC test done over 5 yrs ago. The score registered near 300.
A spot of plaque the size of a sharp pencil point in the endothelia liner is visible on the scan.
No idea how long it has been there. I am 73 in October and have "0" health issues.
A life of exercise/outdoor active (never smoker/non alcohol 2004) better food. Better friends.
The well lived life is all about "Choices" and discovery the what works best for you daily.
Increasing your own shelf life is a game. One anyone can play to win!
I have a resting HR of 49. a max of 161. 110 over 70 BP I check at home for decades. No change.
I must be doing most things correctly. More obituaries are showing up these days. RIP.
I believe Nattokinase is a soy bean ferment. Not chickpeas. It originates in Japan where it’s considered a tasty side dish and is easily fermented for the dinner table. It has better effects in the body that way as well although the slimy aspect is an acquired taste. And because it is fermented soy, one wants to make darned sure the originating bean is organic since soy beans are one of the most genetically altered and poisoned-with-ag-chemicals on the planet. Right along with corn. If your Nattokinase doesn’t say it’s organic you are defeating the whole purpose of using it.
According to this article, chickpeas can be used. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22987066/
If they are used, it’s not Nattokinase. Chickpeas and soy beans are not the same. They have different chemical properties. That doesn’t mean chickpeas can’t behave the same as Nattokinase but it’s not the same and should be called something else. Another area of obfuscation I dislike in “research” and white coat medicine in general.
I did a quick search on DuckDuckGo using "using chickpeas to make nattokinaese". Many articles out there showing how to use chickpeas to make nattokinase. Many point to using it to provide soy free nattokinase. The articles seem to go back at least several years too. Haven't had a chance to review all of them and probably won't be able to either. If you have some references to review with differing information, that would be appreciated.
What about vit K2 in conjuction with vit D and Vit a and their role ina anti-athersclerothis through redireectiojn of calcium to bone and out of blood vessels?
I wanted to say - "you should just ask Google Gemini AI yourself" because this is a complex question - but I asked Gemini on your behalf - I am a health professional and I find that Google Gemini does give good clear answers that are verifiably correct, though you always have to double check because AIs can make mistakes. So - I have not "double checked" but Gemini's answer to your question seems correct to me - Gemini first gave a long answer that I am not quoting, but I re-asked the question very precisely and Gemini said this (all that follows is from Gemini - if you have further related questions, definitely ask Google Gemini yourself for further clarification):
That is a highly specific and critical question, and it addresses the fundamental conflict between these two supplements.
You are correct that even if the primary goal of taking nattokinase isn't clotting reduction, the fact that it does strongly affect clotting factors creates a potential problem when combined with Vitamin K, even if the doses are separated.
Here is the analysis of this conflict and the crucial reason why this combination is generally inadvisable without medical oversight:
Analysis of the Conflict: Antagonism and Instability
The difficulty arises because Vitamin K and Nattokinase operate on opposite sides of the coagulation system, leading to two major issues:
1. Direct Antagonism (Working Against Each Other)
Nattokinase's Action (Fibrinolysis): Nattokinase (NK) works to dissolve clots (by breaking down fibrin) and suppress clotting factors (like Factor VII and VIII) that are already in the blood.
Vitamin K's Action (Synthesis): Vitamin K (specifically K2, the form often paired with Vitamin D) works to activate and replenish those same clotting factors in the liver.
By taking them simultaneously (even if separated by a few hours), you create a biological tug-of-war. The Vitamin K is trying to increase active clotting factors, while the Nattokinase is trying to break down the final clot structure and suppress the synthesis chain. This makes the overall effect on the blood unpredictable.
2. Risk of Unpredictable Coagulation Status
The main reason this is inadvisable is the lack of control over the body's coagulation status.
Interference: Even a Vitamin K-free nattokinase supplement still strongly impacts fibrinogen and Factor VII/VIII. Taking a Vitamin K supplement alongside it means you are constantly interfering with the delicate balance the body maintains.
Safety Threshold: If the person were to experience a trauma, or if the nattokinase dose was high, the body might need a robust clotting response. The combined action risks leaving the individual in a state where neither the fibrinolytic system nor the coagulation system is functioning at a stable, predictable level.
Professional Recommendation: Extreme Caution is Needed
In the context you described (taking Vitamin K for bone health alongside nattokinase for a different health purpose):
It is generally advisable to avoid this combination. If the individual is trying to achieve a health goal with nattokinase that is not dependent on blood thinning, they should re-evaluate if nattokinase is the best supplement, given its potent effect on coagulation.
If they insist on taking both, they must consult a physician. A doctor can confirm that their blood is not being excessively thinned and can advise on lab monitoring (like INR or other coagulation tests) to ensure safety.
The safest approach for anyone taking a potent supplement like nattokinase is to avoid supplementing with Vitamin K, unless specifically instructed and monitored by a healthcare provider who understands the antagonistic relationship.
[All the above is from Gemini - my final comment would be - if nattokinase and Vit K are taken together, as Gemini said, it's a tug of war and you won't know for sure about clotting factors etc. unless you get blood tests done through your primary care provider. And I am not sure how this impacts spike protein. I did not ask Gemini anything related to spike protein issues because Covid & vaccines are so controversial and Gemini would have been programmed by someone who lines up with mainstream knowledge and mainstream narratives, so I'm not going to even ask about something where the programming is going to most likely be with the politically correct narrative. But Vit K serves to increase clotting factors while nattokinase decreases clotting factors. Part of what is desired in terms of counteracting spike protein effects, which is why many people take nattokinase, is because spike protein can cause unwanted blood clots that can cause harm, and having extra Vit. K on board may counteract that effect. But I had understood from things that I have read - that did not go into the mechanisms - that nattokinase may have some direct effect to eliminate spike protein and not just eliminate the effects of spike in terms of stopping spike protein from causing blood clots. That is, I know that nattokinase can prevent blood clots from forming within the circulatory system, but - does nattokinase dissolve or eliminate spike and if yes is it by some separate mechanism unrelated to the clotting issues? I doubt if any of the readers know, though McCullough may be able to clarify further. But as far as Vitamin K - I have read there is no need to take it at all if you are staying within 5,000 IU per day of Vitamin D, that we get a bit of Vit K in our diet almost unavoidably and we will absorb Vitamin D without the K unless the amount of D is about 5,000 IU per day. So maybe one doesn't need the K. I have read articles on this, and anyone interested might just google that or ask Gemini if you truly even need a Vit K supplement. But IF you take K, it will tend toward counteracting the blood thinning effects of nattokinase - which you want, to a point, if you were vaxxed and now your body makes spike protein every day, which causes blood clots that are harmful. So - Gemini said the results of using Vit K alongside Nattokinase are going to be unpredictable. At first Gemini said, you could try taking these at different times of day, but I reminded Gemini that it had already said that nattokinase knocks out the clotting factors for up to a week or two, for me, a good two weeks, I think, and that being the case, makes no difference if you space out the two supplements during a single day, the effects of both are longer term, and in the end, to know what is going on with clotting you would have to take to your physician and get blood tests. Gemini also in a lengthy separate post mentioned that in the food natto which is from fermented beans, there is actually a certain amount of Vitamin K, but in the more potent supplements the manufacturers remove the Vit. K so it's not there. Anyway, this question is pretty complex and partly unknowable, I think, think it is unlikely that anyone else is going to know much more on this. I hope this helps a little. But if you do have spike protein on board, you want to prevent clots and thus the K seems like something to avoid, but you also don't want to excessively inhibit your ability to clot, thus - having a physician check labs to make sure your dosage is right for you as far as the dose of nattokinase - and if taking both together, the net result can be monitored, but mostly K and nattokinase work at cross purposes in regard to clotting.
A request: could someone provide an analysis that answers this question.