Christians, and Jews as well, would point out that that strong and enduring predilection for conflict and strife was part of the original fall, in the garden of Eden, when Satan convinced Eve, and Adam, that basically, man can be like God, simply by eating a piece of fruit God forbade them to eat.
The first result: Cain killed Abel. And Cain has been killing Abel (brother against brother) since. But God did provide the solution: sending his son, Jesus to become a man like us and to willingly die on a cross for us. All we have to do is accept this gift of grace.
The “strong and enduring predilection to conflict” has, throughout history, been mostly fomented from above. The powerful have seen fit to divide the masses against each other. The masses have often seemed ready to go along, but without the propaganda and lies raining down from above would have more likely seen fit to get along with their neighbors. It was ever thus, and remains so today.
And in my experience, practically no one will admit to being manipulated by the propaganda, even when they know the truth of the matter. Human nature is also rife with denial and "saving face".
You are most likely correct. The problem is that the "fallen world" was the kick off, the send off, into a world of conflict. The lie. The hidden destructive influence, became the standard copied paradigm throughout history.
Yes John, The Bible, not just Greek literature, tell us that, to use the theological phrase which came out of the Reformation, man is “Totally Depraved”.
Or, to put it as did the Spirit of God, speaking through His prophet Jeremiah:
“The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.”
If one stops a few minutes and thinks on what that Jeremiah’s words really mean, it is sobering indeed, but then any broad and honest view of human history bears out the reality of these words.
You say we are to think of Odyssius when pondering the frailty of man.
That is what I would expect a man steeped in classical literature, rather that the Word of God, to say.
How unfortunate that you should be guided more by that, and lead your followers in the same way of error.
The Bible directs us to think not of Odyssius, or any other mere man, or pseudo god, but rather to the Lord Jesus Christ Who came and provided a Way of redemption from from our Depravity.
May he lead you and your followers there, rather than to Odyssius.
By the way, I have noticed that though you quote often from classical literature yiu bever quote from Bunyans’s Pilgrims Progress, or Milton’s Paradise Lost, or Cowpers poetry.
Having practiced faith-based peacemaking, I found there were certain stumbling blocks, which I started to address in my "Divine Collaboration" protocol.
Odysseus was just another contentious, violent man. All he did was to get creative about being the contentious human he was. And got glorified for it as we always glorify heroic, warlike, contentious efforts. He is no hero. He’s just a magnification of everything we worship as humans. Which isn’t what Jesus or Buddha or any other enlightened person has ever tried to get us to change into.
This reminds of Madison's Federalist No. 51, where separation in the various powers of government -- "Ambition must be made to counteract ambition." -- was considered a requirement for lasting peace and prosperity. The argument relies on the proposition that men are not angels, which is definitely a true proposition.
But men can "live like" angels if they try very hard (which means thinking very hard). Ayn Rand had a way of putting things into very broad perspective with just a few words. Here is an appropriate quote:
“Under a proper social system…a private individual may do anything except that which is legally forbidden; a government official may do nothing except that which is legally permitted…This is the American concept of ‘a government of laws and not of men.’”
And Francisco's Money Speech outlines how it is that when people deal with one another by the use of money (productivity) rather than by the use of guns (force), great things not only happen, but they endure. The endurance of great things, such as enlarged pockets of lasting peace on Earth, are a cardinal sign that human beings exist.
We're that special kind of being with the power to set things up so that we are not at each other's throats -- if we try very hard (which means thinking very hard).
Yes, the US was pretty much free of all the religious nonsense on the European Continent and beyond, thanks in large part to the spirit of the First Amendment. It was fine until Dubya & Dick under the leadership of Zionist Neocons put us right smack in the middle of the religious and tribal conflict by responding the false flag at WTC with a Global War Of Terror.
Have the Zionists delivered their Trojan Horse by way of AIPAC?
Absolutely agree. For me, a Buddhist, the goal becomes a "high life condition." A high life condition triumphs over adversity by gaining wisdom, tolerance, patience, renewal, etc. We enjoy the journey of struggling and overcoming obstacles (sometimes defeats), for as human in a material world, we will always have struggles and hardships.
I love the title, John Leake..."Skilled in all ways of contending". I have made a practice of it...and have enjoyed relative peace because of it...no one wants to mess with someone they perceive as a contender. Peace through strength...actually the foundation of Christian virtue. All of us should be prepared to wage war, and be desirous of seeking peace with all men...as much as it is up to us, to be at peace with all men. Unfortunately, our enemies love war, not peace...so we need to be a clear deterrent to them.
The Europeans and Asians have fought amongst themselves for millennia. Our ancestors were wise to seek out and migrate to a distant land in search of peace and freedom. Our first President here in the new nation named the United States advised future generations to avoid foreign entanglements and to treat all other nations with benevolence. We should be so wise.
Both the minaret and the church are symbols of men "skilled in some [not all] ways of contending". The issue we face is to understand what we are contending for and how we go about it. Odysseus was a warrior and a wanderer, contending for personal autonomy and glory, hero of a seafaring, colonising people. Jesus Christ was neither a warrior nor a wanderer, nor was he contending for personal autonomy and glory. But he was certainly skilled in spiritual, godly ways of contending - which is why the church, ultimately, is better than the minaret. Christ does not need to behead his adversaries. Rather he teaches and empowers them to crush the sinful nature within. Ultimately there can be no other basis for true civilisation.
Christians, and Jews as well, would point out that that strong and enduring predilection for conflict and strife was part of the original fall, in the garden of Eden, when Satan convinced Eve, and Adam, that basically, man can be like God, simply by eating a piece of fruit God forbade them to eat.
The first result: Cain killed Abel. And Cain has been killing Abel (brother against brother) since. But God did provide the solution: sending his son, Jesus to become a man like us and to willingly die on a cross for us. All we have to do is accept this gift of grace.
They are putting the MRNA vax in your food you need to do this right now....
https://t.co/YE2P88zZhf
The “strong and enduring predilection to conflict” has, throughout history, been mostly fomented from above. The powerful have seen fit to divide the masses against each other. The masses have often seemed ready to go along, but without the propaganda and lies raining down from above would have more likely seen fit to get along with their neighbors. It was ever thus, and remains so today.
And in my experience, practically no one will admit to being manipulated by the propaganda, even when they know the truth of the matter. Human nature is also rife with denial and "saving face".
I don’t agree. I believe that we would seek out peace, as most animals do, if we were not intentionally manipulated.
You are most likely correct. The problem is that the "fallen world" was the kick off, the send off, into a world of conflict. The lie. The hidden destructive influence, became the standard copied paradigm throughout history.
A clever, heroic warrior-champion with a loyal wife, AND DOG…what more could a weakened nation hope for?
Long live Ulysses.
Yes John, The Bible, not just Greek literature, tell us that, to use the theological phrase which came out of the Reformation, man is “Totally Depraved”.
Or, to put it as did the Spirit of God, speaking through His prophet Jeremiah:
“The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.”
If one stops a few minutes and thinks on what that Jeremiah’s words really mean, it is sobering indeed, but then any broad and honest view of human history bears out the reality of these words.
You say we are to think of Odyssius when pondering the frailty of man.
That is what I would expect a man steeped in classical literature, rather that the Word of God, to say.
How unfortunate that you should be guided more by that, and lead your followers in the same way of error.
The Bible directs us to think not of Odyssius, or any other mere man, or pseudo god, but rather to the Lord Jesus Christ Who came and provided a Way of redemption from from our Depravity.
May he lead you and your followers there, rather than to Odyssius.
By the way, I have noticed that though you quote often from classical literature yiu bever quote from Bunyans’s Pilgrims Progress, or Milton’s Paradise Lost, or Cowpers poetry.
Telling, don’t you think?
In Him
Jacob
Having practiced faith-based peacemaking, I found there were certain stumbling blocks, which I started to address in my "Divine Collaboration" protocol.
Odysseus was just another contentious, violent man. All he did was to get creative about being the contentious human he was. And got glorified for it as we always glorify heroic, warlike, contentious efforts. He is no hero. He’s just a magnification of everything we worship as humans. Which isn’t what Jesus or Buddha or any other enlightened person has ever tried to get us to change into.
They are putting the MRNA vax in your food you need to do this right now....
https://t.co/YE2P88zZhf
Odysseus was clever, but he failed to evade the draft, pretending to be 4F.
John,
This reminds of Madison's Federalist No. 51, where separation in the various powers of government -- "Ambition must be made to counteract ambition." -- was considered a requirement for lasting peace and prosperity. The argument relies on the proposition that men are not angels, which is definitely a true proposition.
But men can "live like" angels if they try very hard (which means thinking very hard). Ayn Rand had a way of putting things into very broad perspective with just a few words. Here is an appropriate quote:
“Under a proper social system…a private individual may do anything except that which is legally forbidden; a government official may do nothing except that which is legally permitted…This is the American concept of ‘a government of laws and not of men.’”
And Francisco's Money Speech outlines how it is that when people deal with one another by the use of money (productivity) rather than by the use of guns (force), great things not only happen, but they endure. The endurance of great things, such as enlarged pockets of lasting peace on Earth, are a cardinal sign that human beings exist.
We're that special kind of being with the power to set things up so that we are not at each other's throats -- if we try very hard (which means thinking very hard).
Europe has pretty much given in to the most violent. It would, in fact, be well served by a return of the Knights Templar.
No doubt a factor to be considered.
Yes, the US was pretty much free of all the religious nonsense on the European Continent and beyond, thanks in large part to the spirit of the First Amendment. It was fine until Dubya & Dick under the leadership of Zionist Neocons put us right smack in the middle of the religious and tribal conflict by responding the false flag at WTC with a Global War Of Terror.
Have the Zionists delivered their Trojan Horse by way of AIPAC?
Absolutely agree. For me, a Buddhist, the goal becomes a "high life condition." A high life condition triumphs over adversity by gaining wisdom, tolerance, patience, renewal, etc. We enjoy the journey of struggling and overcoming obstacles (sometimes defeats), for as human in a material world, we will always have struggles and hardships.
I love the title, John Leake..."Skilled in all ways of contending". I have made a practice of it...and have enjoyed relative peace because of it...no one wants to mess with someone they perceive as a contender. Peace through strength...actually the foundation of Christian virtue. All of us should be prepared to wage war, and be desirous of seeking peace with all men...as much as it is up to us, to be at peace with all men. Unfortunately, our enemies love war, not peace...so we need to be a clear deterrent to them.
The Europeans and Asians have fought amongst themselves for millennia. Our ancestors were wise to seek out and migrate to a distant land in search of peace and freedom. Our first President here in the new nation named the United States advised future generations to avoid foreign entanglements and to treat all other nations with benevolence. We should be so wise.
Ah, how to gain the traits of Odysseus for when I'm confronted by people being petty.
Both the minaret and the church are symbols of men "skilled in some [not all] ways of contending". The issue we face is to understand what we are contending for and how we go about it. Odysseus was a warrior and a wanderer, contending for personal autonomy and glory, hero of a seafaring, colonising people. Jesus Christ was neither a warrior nor a wanderer, nor was he contending for personal autonomy and glory. But he was certainly skilled in spiritual, godly ways of contending - which is why the church, ultimately, is better than the minaret. Christ does not need to behead his adversaries. Rather he teaches and empowers them to crush the sinful nature within. Ultimately there can be no other basis for true civilisation.