By Peter A. McCullough, MD, MPH, and John Leake
Dr. Peter McCullough and historian John Leake on catch up on The Hot Zone, FOCAL Points (America Out Loud Talk Radio) for a wide‑ranging conversation on the state of American governance in late 2025. Leake identifies the main theme of the year as the tumult surrounding Donald Trump’s return to the presidency. He recalls early optimism that Trump would “drain the swamp,” but argues that, despite fanfare, Washington continues to function as a sewer—a man‑made system of corruption rather than a natural swamp. Leake expands on this metaphor, linking it to Cicero’s notion that empires rest upon hidden filth beneath their marble façades. Together, they question whether systemic self‑interest—entrenched bureaucrats protecting their careers—has rendered reform impossible.
McCullough notes that roughly one in seven Americans now works for government, making genuine downsizing politically suicidal. Leake cites Elon Musk’s brief leadership of the Department of Government Efficiency as proof that even when graft is uncovered, vested beneficiaries resist exposure. He likens the fiscal situation to a late‑night party stoked by debt creation and financial recklessness. Both men condemn the fusion of state and corporate power—what Leake calls modern fascism—where government primarily serves military, pharmaceutical, and financial elites.
The conversation turns to the Epstein files as an emblem of institutional opacity. Leake details how bipartisan promises to reveal Epstein’s network have produced only partial document releases, suggesting high‑level protection of intelligence interests. Citing Eric Weinstein’s account of meeting Epstein, Leake characterizes him as a likely construct of Western intelligence agencies used to compromise elites. McCullough agrees that the failure to release congressional‑mandated documents shows the collapse of genuine representative government—what Leake calls a “Potemkin democracy.”
They lament the nation’s cultural decline—citizens numbed by social media, pornography, and games—while attention to power concentration evaporates. The pair criticize Trump’s personal attacks on allies like Thomas Massey and Marjorie Taylor Greene, interpreting his behavior as a symptom of moral and rhetorical decay in leadership. Greene’s resignation, they argue, underscores the futility of expecting reform within a corrupt system.
Leake expands the critique historically, comparing today’s U.S. politics to imperial Rome’s decadence, where emperors were figureheads surrounded by self‑serving courtiers. He and McCullough outline how both Republican and Democratic administrations—Bush, Obama, Biden, and now Trump—have perpetuated identical financial and foreign‑policy regimes. WikiLeaks’ revelations of Citibank selecting Obama’s cabinet exemplify the corporate continuity from one administration to the next. McCullough contrasts the former courtesy presidents showed predecessors with today’s constant score‑settling and media manipulation.
The pair condemn propaganda strategies like the DNC’s “Pied Piper” plan that elevated Trump for ratings, likening it to right‑wing media’s obsession with liberal villains. They conclude that such incompetent Machiavellianism sustains polarization while distracting the public from real structural issues.
In closing, both men urge “radical transparency”—complete public disclosure from intelligence and health agencies—and admit that many in the bureaucracy likely subvert elected officials. McCullough praises executive orders limiting ideological programs in medicine but insists on decorum, restraint, and compassion at the top. Leake warns that the republic verges on Roman‑style dysfunction, even as both glimpse hope: RFK Jr.’s acknowledgment of unresolved vaccine‑autism questions, Trump’s possible withdrawal from endless wars, and the potential for an AI‑driven economic “Golden Age.” They end on cautious optimism that peace, transparency, and moral renewal might yet emerge from today’s political sewer.
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Peter A. McCullough, MD, MPH
President, McCullough Foundation
